Below is a chat conversation between myself an Cunzy in response to the previous post about Terra Nova:
Cunzy 11: I just, I just, Hate them
Cunzy 11: Hate hate hate
Fair enough if they ju argghhh
Richie: I never read TN
Cunzy 11: It's like TGAM except not funny or pertinent
"Deliberately doing something pleasurable which you know will cause others pain (e.g. ganking)" from Terra Nova
Cunzy 11: Pfffffffffffffft
See my comments on that post
Richie: Its a gank or be ganked world... Deal with it
Cunzy 11: I know
Don't whinge about it
But doubly don't try to define it
They try to define it to themselves
Chat to any normal gamer and they won't care
They'll say I was ganked/fraged/ninjad
They don't care
Ninja-ing is wrong. Well wrong
Cunzy 11: Exactly
And it's different in WoW or Baldur's Gate or Timesplitters 2 split screen
No point in defining it
OR NOT DEFINING IT. That's another point they never do. They just say. This needs defining. Lots of bollox with crappy referencing then "what do you think" and then everyone disagrees
Richie: I see what you mean, griefing can't be generalised
Cunzy 11: Here's what I said:
I think you have your chronology all topsy-turvy.
Many gamers and/or virtual world inhabitants were familiar with camping, spawn camping, looting, TKing etc. well before the term griefing became the much banded around term it is today. I also think you need define the demographics that use the term 'griefing' in the senses you defined above and name virtual worlds associated with those demographics.
If you are talking about Second Life, sure. I think WoW and some others can be lumped in there too. But you can't make these sweeping assumptions which may strike a chord with TNers but aren't true across all platforms.
Richie: Yeah I read it
But In TNs defence, they are only talking about MMOs
So in that case there is more interactions with Random folk
Their point is that "everyone should be nice to each other"
People like that just can't deal with the harsh cruelty that is that the "reality" is that it is a GAME
Plus: "Accidentally causing others pain through error or incompetence (e.g. Leeeeroy)." From Terra Nova
Leeeeroy was not an accident
Plus if it is an accident... gez
It's not like you were setting out to fuck everyone over.
FFS everyone can have an off day
Cunzy 11: Yeah but
They have to look at all games
Cunzy 11: Not just MMORPGs or not just that little selection
Richie: That's what terra nova are about? Just MMOs?
Cunzy 11: What about Pokemon? Animal Crossing? Scrabble?
Cunzy 11: How, Mario Kart DS
Synthetics worlds, MMOs, MMORPGs,Social Worlds, MUDs, MOOs, and MUSHes
Richie: because... well in most cases there is a lot more time and effort gone into them.
In the case of WoW.
You have to spend £9 a month, griefing can really be escalated
and to get good rewards you sometimes need to rely on random strangers.
Cunzy 11: So, you have to play an Xbox live subscription
It just the thin end of the wedge
Richie: Xbox live is different
Different styles of games
Cunzy 11: And MMOs are so closely related to other games and steal and share concepts and ideas.
Richie: On XBL rewards are often achievable with griefers, and achievements only come in the form of gamerpoints
Cunzy 11: In some respects but look at their themes. I would say you can get equal interaction in Gears or Halo
But they don't just go on about collecting epic gear.
They go on about emotion, interactions, avatars.
Nothing MMO specific
Hell in WoW you can't even virtually touch anyone!
Without fireworks or dodgy contact visualisation
Richie: No I would say most of those Terra Nova points were MMO specific
Yeah and there is a reason you cant touch anyone, fucking griefers would block the roads
Cunzy 11: But there are examples of this in online FPS's
Richie: Such as?
Cunzy 11: One guy was forced to spend three hours in a cupboard on CoD3
His team mates blocked him in
Cunzy 11: Didn't want to get bad rep for quitting
Richie: He could have logged
Cunzy 11: Just had to sit there
OK... griefing is more Rife in MMos
In Online games like CoD, Gears etc there is more of a team ethic
In WoW it's a selfish thing ALWAYS
It's all about YOUR gear
Cunzy 11: But griefing is much better displayed, more graphic outside of MMOs
In WoW, Not EVE online or second life
Richie: Well in all MMOs.
In Eve and second life because it's all about you
Second life doesn't count, its a glorified Chat room. It has no achievements
Cunzy 11: WoW has no achievements
Richie: WoW is achievement based!
Cunzy 11: What about all the stats for FPS and/or cash, rank
More of an achievement because it isn't just dependent on the time you spend clicking on rats
Cunzy 11: You know what I mean tho
Richie: yeah but in FPS YOUR stats can rarely be influenced by other people
Cunzy 11: It's entirely influenced by other people
Richie: not at all
Lets take number of headshots:
That is just purely dependant on your skill
Cunzy 11: Your skill against others
In wow how is that influenced by anyone
Richie: Yeah the enemy...
Kill or be killed
In WoW, if someone fucks up in your team, you wont get the rewards
I.e. better gear for game progression
I'm gonna stop saying "in wow" as well... it is my only reference
Cunzy 11: but to progress to what? End Game where everyone gives up until level 80 is released?
Richie: nah, there's more to the endgame now
Cunzy 11: Like?
Richie: plus with the patch for speeded up levelling most people are suffering from ALTism.
Once you get endgame, these are different paths you can take for reputation with factions, no one is going to do ALL of them, but I suppose you could if you wanted
Cunzy 11: NPCs great
Richie: reputatiom = rewards = money = funding for guilds, alts, or getting prettier sets, repeccing your character etc.
Cunzy 11: But you could do most of this on your own right?
Cunzy 11: They still haven't really cracked doing good things with guilds imho
Or interesting things
Richie: There is only a certain level you can do by your own
Its just an online community
Cunzy 11: It's just you need to come together for the group grind
Cunzy 11: So, we've digressed a bit. But set in this framework how much can you read into these interactions when the motivation for a lot is stuff
Richie: In a guild there will be lots of different people at different levels of endgame
it's a handy place for gathering people together for instances.
Cunzy 11: BUT ONLY AS
Richie: Plus Guilds can pass on knowledge and strats to people who don't know how to kill certain bosses
But on that note, I rarely do instances and I rarely acknowledge my guild
I much prefer the solo aspect
You can do a lot just in PvP
But I can't get new recipes/patterns/materials etc for upping my character
And I don't really care
I really just like the PvP.
You are forced into a group, and forced to team up.
All of you have the same goal
An at the same time you get to use proper SKILLS to defeat your opponent
Cunzy 11: So like Gears then
Except you use proper skills
Not ones you bought and then shortcutted
Richie: you are generalising again
Ok let's say i bought a fireball Rank 12
I still need to know the right time to use it
It has a 2 second cast time, so there are times when you have to use skills that have less of a cast time
I need to know when to shield
I need to choose my moment to freeze opponents where they stand
I need to position myself at a point where I can maybe get longer casting and more powerful skills in there
There are loads of abilities that different characters have
And knowing how to counter them can sway fights
It's the same in instances, they have made them different it's no longer a case of: the tank tanks, the Healers heal, and the Casters cast.
Cunzy 11: But then you lose the need to co-operate if you can just co-operate with anyone
Richie: Not really its more on-the-fly co-operation
I can't take on 3 enemies
(Unless they are shite)
And neither can, lets say a warrior...
So we work together to take them on
People are all over the place in BGs
They need to be
It is more Gears-y the PvP.
But in gears everyone is balanced
I would never return to the days of 40 man raids and waiting for people to get ready and being forced to sheep a target because if I don't we KNOW that we will wipe
PvP utilises all your abilitys and it takes skill to know when to use certain things
Cunzy 11: Ok what about TF2 then?
Cunzy 11: team fortress
Richie: Haven't got a clue
Cunzy 11: Dude. Get with the lingo
Richie: Never liked Half life
Mind you I only played it for 10 mins
Cunzy 11: Not really half life anymore. But it's a FPS but everyone is not balanced
Isn't it the same as WoW except you choose your nuances in five seconds rather than 37 days
Richie: Yeah but those EIGHT days you are playing lets you decide where and what you wanna do
WoW is very expansive
Hell you can just get to lvl 70 and then level another character
Some people don't like the end game they just like the plot
ANYWAY. We have digressed somewhat. Again.
I don't like being on the defensive side of WoW all the time
I am more used to arguing against hardcore players
We should totally blog this conversation
Copy/paste (fix tyops)
Jesus HOLY christ!
Thats an epic conversation
Cunzy 11:Yes yes it is
Now I can see the appeal of reading Terra Nova
Richie: lol, and there we have our ending....